Click Nothing

design from a long time ago

  1. Sven's avatar
  2. Unknown's avatar

    I’m one of the author’s in the 2022 opdc (didn’t win anything, still trying to bear up under the shame…

  3. Arya's avatar
  4. Max Clark's avatar
  5. Kfix's avatar

    Thank you for this very interesting collection, and for wrestling with the obviously mixed feelings on this anniversary. And thank…

Manveer over at Design Rampage threw up his Pecha Kucha style slides, notes and audio from his GLS talk about Ethical Decision Making in games.

He makes more or less the same points that I made in a similar talk back in 2004, linked here as well as in the stack on the right. PK talks are great because they cut right to the point. In all honesty in today's age, I am starting to lose faith in the 1 hour talk format.

I commented briefly on Manveer's site, but I wanted to recap the point here. One of the four points Manveer identifies in his talk as being important to designing for meaningful ethical decisions is `permanence`. He states in his notes "A dilemma ceases to be a dilemma if you get a do-over. Save games, unfortunately ruin this.".

I find myself unwilling to accept this. As I said in the comments over on his side, this is seeking to apply an author-centric narrative model to a medium with which it is not compatible. Games (at least modern single-player computer games) allow the ability to redo actions through save-load. This is inherent to what they are and quite possibly need to be.

In The Iliad, when Hector decides to go and fight Achilles, we know he's going to die… so does everyone else. So does he. And that's the point. Hector can't do anything else because Hector is Hector and that is why we care. Author centric media allow for this inevitability. In fact, they are dependant on it.

In a game, Hector is not Hector. Hector is the player and the player will keep fighting Achilles until he wins, and this is the way it should be. In fact, making it impossible to change the decision and do it differently – arguably even making it difficult to beat Achilles to try and make the player feel the way Hector feels - is contrary to what both games and difficult decisions are about. The emotional emphasis and resultant challenge should be on the decision to commit to fighting Achilles, not the rote mashing of buttons to launch the combos that will sever the tendon that bears his name and beat him.

The path forward – in my opinion – is to invent a new ethical decision making model specific to games that embraces what games are instead of rejecting it for the models used in other author-centric media that have been successful up to now. I don't know exactly what that model is shaped like (though I talked about it in my talk), but I know that if we adopt a narrativoid, author-centric model, we may one day manage to make EDMs in games that are as compelling as those in authored media, but we'll never exceed the emotional weight of those media.

If we truly want to be the dominant culture form of the twenty-first century, we have fight on our own terms, not on their terms. We have to do it the way that works for us. We have to step out on the field of battle and face our own Achilles, even if it means we will lose, because it's in our nature and we can't do it differently anyway…

Or maybe we can.

Maybe we can all try it our own different way and collectively solve the problem by trying all the different permutations simultaneously and seeing which way works and comparing notes in real time via the interwebs instead of waiting for someone to write down the authoritative solution and teach it to us.

That's what I'm talkin' about. How's that for a meta-post.

Posted in , , , , , ,

30 responses to “Ethical Decision Making”

  1. Borut Pfeifer Avatar

    Aren’t we as beholden, if not more so, to conventions created for games 20-30 years ago as to conventions of linear media?
    There are certain aspects and emotions to life that require permanence – you can never regret a choice you’ve made if you can always take back. I perosnally refuse to believe games are incapable of having a player experience that kind of emotional range.
    I think we need rebel from anything that doesn’t work to move us forward, not just rebel from what some would view as monolithic old media. The save game is inherently a barrier to immersion (see Randy Smith’s talk from 2 GDC’s ago). I’m not saying reflection it forces upon the player is always a bad thing, but in those areas where you need to create immersion, it certainly would seem to be.
    So in the end I agree with your last point that saving/reloading may be inherent to what your games are and quite possibly need to be, but I think it’s dangerous to claim that’s what they all need to be (ie. your 4th paragraph). 🙂

    Like

  2. Clint Avatar

    The save game is inherently a barrier to immersion
    I would agree with that. However, I am also coming to think that ‘immersion’ as we commonly think of it is also antithetical to what games are.
    as beholden, if not more so, to conventions created for games 20-30 years ago
    I think I’m talking about games created 100 million years ago. The very nature of two monkey’s wrestling is that it is a game that simulates what could happen when those two monkeys grow up and have to fight an alpha male to ascend. The very nature of the ‘game’ of fighting is that they are implicitly agreeing to play a GAME whose rules allow do-overs endlessly until the day when they fight a real monkey in a real fight where the consequences are real and there are no do-overs.

    Like

  3. Borut Pfeifer Avatar

    Yes, but there’s a spectrum of consequence. Obviously in that it’s a game and not real life there are no true consequences to any of your actions.
    For that kind of play, to prepare you for something you would experience in the real world, isn’t immersion an at-least-sometimes useful goal to get the player closer to the experience they need to learn how to deal with? I mean, it’s ok to back off from that level of closeness to the subject matter to periodically let them regroup & take away their learnings, but I have trouble seeing why immersion would be antithetical or bad for that purpose. I could see why you wouldn’t want to pursue it all the time, but I could see it’s usefulness in achieving that goal as well.
    In other words, even two monkey’s playfighting may still hurt each other.

    Like

  4. Manveer Heir Avatar

    I don’t think immersion is antithetical to what games are at all – they just aren’t the only way to go, and AAA console titles seem to all be focused on immersion so it’s what we commonly think about. Most casual games don’t try to immerse you (as least not sensually, as you put it a couple years ago at GDC… maybe logically). When you talk about monkeys wrestling, that seems more like PLAY to me and not games specifically (I know I’m opening a can of worms with that statement of Play vs. Game). I think games usually have a more stringent rule-set. Digital games have something that can always enforce that ruleset – a computer. So it’s smart and useful to take advantage of that.
    In life, we all make decisions everyday. Who hasn’t regretted a choice in life, whether it be the girl who you let get away, or the fight you started that never should have happened? Games give me a safe space to experience some decisions like this. If we succeed fully, games then can give me potential experiences dealing with tough decisions in a safe environment, but still let me go through the same emotions. That’s what I want. And I think reloading a save is counter-intuitive to that.
    What I’m proposing is a, brute force admittedly, approach of giving the players enough branching options in their world that when they make a “mistake” their thought isn’t to “reload to fix it”. Rather, the game keeps going, handles it, and lets you to continue and learn from that mistake and feel the emotions, the regret, from what you chose. That requires a LOT more work, but I think it lets us experience games differently. You said at GDC this year that you don’t get this need to “beat” or “master” a game. But reloading save games is exactly that – it’s our need, from training, to want to MASTER something. That means that there is a “right path” – what if we stop creating a “right path” or “correct path” and instead create lots of different paths to the end of a game that give you different experiences. That seems far more interesting to me than what we have now in games.
    In the end though, there is never going to be one ethical model of implementation that will handle all types of games. I think it all comes down to design goals. I’m not interested in necessarily making a stance in a game on what is “right” and “wrong” – I’d rather just let people experience something and come to their own conclusion. But an educator may want to use a game to teach morals, and therefore the design of the game and the model of ethical implementation changes as a result. So, you’re right when you say we need to all try different things. Hopefully we find a handful of models that work for different goals/styles of games.

    Like

  5. Tj'ièn Avatar

    Hey Clint, interesting post and I think I agree with you. Games are about the player and letting the player take the lead and drive the action, so why would we want to force a particular narrative? We fail miserably when we try because they exclude each other. That why we have cut scenes and the like where the player looses control, we force them to watch because otherwise we do not get the story across. To this day we haven’t invented our way of telling a story.
    Maybe this is because we are trying too hard to tell a particular story, instead of vaguely describing some story. We have to except that when the player directs the action, (s)he should also direct the story, meaning we as designers inevitably loose control.
    Inevitability is something we haven’t explored enough in games in my opinion. What if you made a wrong choice and you died, no save game, no way of playing that instance of the game again, loosing a character forever. Would that mean that you wouldn’t like the game? Would this result in the player playing extra careful? Would the player play again? Even if it was with a new character, a new quest to achieve? Personally I think this is an interesting proposition… What do you think?

    Like

  6. Ben Abraham Avatar

    I think this type of exchange between Clint and Manveer is incredibly exciting, and only a good sign about the health of the industry. I think it’s extremely beneficial for game players to see the creators interacting and discussing ideas. More twitter/blog conversations please! =D

    Like

  7. Miguel Sicart Avatar

    Very interesting discussion this one. As an academic that has worked for a while on the topic of ethics and computer games, I feel I have some comments to the whole argument. Of course, as an academic, so our views and understanding may be different.
    Just to get the shameless self-promotion out of the way (heavy philosophy ahead! beware!): I’ve written a book on the topic that has just been published by MIT Press: The Ethics of Computer Games (http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11758). The book has a brief chapter on ethics and game design, and I am currently working on a sequel to that book, focused on design and ethics.
    So, I guess my main comments to this discussion are two: first, I believe that we should think not about Ethical Dilemmas in games, but about the broader concept of ethical gameplay, that includes game experiences such as Shadow of the Colossus or Manhunt – inherently “ethical” games where players have no choices. In my view, ethics in games has to do with the values we play by, and how those relate to the player we want to be, and the person we want to be. Some games explore that domain by giving explicit choices to players (Fable); others, by opening a world and letting the player become a citizen in it (Fallout 3, but also MMOs); others embed values in the system, like Ultima IV, and make ethics a crucial part of the actual procedural gameplay. And others do so by means of narrative (Bioshock and the narrative twist).
    So, what I claim is that ethical gameplay has to be understood beyond the simple dilemma structure – ethical gameplay is about challenging and exploring the values we play by, and how those relate to who we are as players, but also, and more importantly, as human beings.
    My second comment to this discussion has to do with players and how we understand them: for ethical gameplay to take place, we need to rethink our conceptions of players, we need better models than those provided by economics, or by data mining. We need to understand who is the ethical player (I will argue we are all ethical players, only not always playing ethically relevant games), and how we can challenge her.
    I have been doing some work on this domain (some of it available here: http://miguelsicart.net/?page_id=11), since I believe that one of the fundamental challenges for the maturity of games as a medium is the creation of interesting, compelling ethical experiences.

    Like

  8. Roger Travis Avatar

    Hi Clint; I don’t know if the Hector/Achilles analogy was a conscious gauntlet thrown down to me, but I certainly find it very provocative. From my perspective, your analysis of what’s going on in the Iliad is shaped by a really fascinating (and nearly universal) misunderstanding of how the Iliad came into being–one which actually has a lot of bearing on the present question of permanence and interactivity.
    The conventions of the bardic tradition did indeed dictate that Hector always died, but the fundamental interactivity of the tradition also dictated that he never died the same way twice. The player in this situation is Achilles, not Hector, and the decision to talk about is the decision to tie Hector to Achilles’ chariot and drive him around the walls of Troy, a terribly unethical thing to do, and something that could have been retold in a myriad of different ways.
    From my perspective, you and Manveer are on opposite sides of a spectrum that needs to be a spectrum if games are going to realize their full ethical potential.

    Like

  9. CrashT Avatar

    This problem of the mutability of choices in games seems like something Bioware are very keen to deal with. The very nature of MMOs means that The Old Republic is structured in a way that makes any choices permanent. Whether it succeeds in making players care more, and have a greater emotional attachment to their choices will be interesting to discover.
    The structure of games is such that the ability for a “do over” is often necessary, difficulty spikes and poorly implemented mechanics can lead to frustration and potentially abandonment of the game if not mitigated to some extent. However when it comes to more high level choices such as those tied to ethical decisions I think the major problem with games that they often present a highly biased view of the motivations behind and outcomes of such choices. Given a choice, and assuming free will nobody makes a decision they believe to be unethical. Objectively such decisions may be unethical but subjectively they are always the correct decisions to make, even if they are the lesser of two percieved evils. I think the desire to go back and alter such choices comes from the mechanical manner in which choices are handled in games. Moralizing in games is done from a very one sided perspective and so decisions lose their weight because one is clearly good and the other bad. Players don’t choose the bad option because they emphathise with it they choose it because they think they might be rewarded for it, if the reward is not present or is not bug enough they will seek to change their choice.
    Games exist eternally bound by the fourth wall and as such they provide a space in which choices and consequences can be explored free from social and legal restraints. If such choices are treated in a more subjective manner it could allow players to explore their own nature as sometimes they might make an unethical decision for what to them are value reasons. If the games allows for this decision without direct comment on the ethics of it players will probably continue playing for longer and potentially learn something about themselves. Isn’t that kind of self reflectipn something we wantbour games to provoke?
    um

    Like

  10. Rich Wilson Avatar

    There are two paradigmatic issues that I think stand in the way of the player embracing tragedy and loss as valid experiences in games.
    First is the problem of the avatar. When you put a player in a first person relationship with a character, optimization and survival instincts are going to kick in. The player will always look out for number one, and keep save/loading until they have succeeded.
    This ties into the second problem, goal structures. If you look at more sandboxy games like The Sims, you see user created tragedies all the time. This is partly due to the lack of investment of the player in any particular character and partly to the “try this, see what happens” model of interactivity.
    I think we can get past both of these paradigms while still retaining some systemic accountability(meaningful consequences delegated by an impartial rules system instead of “let’s pretend” thought exercises) and emotional ties to characters if we dig around enough. Might try to drum up some more meaningful thought on this…

    Like

  11. Oscar Barda Avatar

    I think that practically, you just should not apply direct consequences to ethical choices in game but try to affect the world’s system instead.
    Explaining myself :
    If you give a player a direct outcome to a conversation, you’ll get that automatic “I wonder what would’ve happened if I choose otherwise” and see him reload the game to check. If you don’t, if you postpone the result of the action to an ambiance/mood change into the world, that you would of course have to make obvious for the player to know and see that he has an influence on the world.
    Clint you had this reflexion a while ago on the save/load compulsion, and I think that you were right on your view of the situation : if a player can easily compare borh situations like “if you make an evil choice, I give you this attack-oriented object, if you make a nice choice I’ll give you this defense-oriented object” they will do it, and they will want to know what would mechanically happen if they chose the other one. The very spot where Jade Empire and the other Bioware games failed : the player wants to know what happens.
    It’s too much of a game gimmick if you ask me, you must therefore immerse the player into making decisions that affect the long term rather than having a direct measurable outcome. Of course, if you care about a story, you’ll make a good choice, now the game must challenge you on what the good choice is ; would you rather save ten people that are far away or save one people dying in front of you ?
    I think that’s what the grey zone is and it doesn’t necessarily have an impact on the game itself, would you think that a story-driven important decision must have a gameplay-related consequence ?
    A choice like this could make you cry, as for example eliminate this or this character, you know that both will have dramatic consequences… What would you do ? Sorry, I might bring back the debate to the crying shix here 😉

    Like

  12. Tj'ièn Avatar

    Goal structures and tangible values connected to does goal definitely stand in the way and having no goal opens things up, although it can be questioned if it would still be a game (but lets assume it does for the sake of this discussion).
    Fumito Ueda is a master of tragedy in my opinion, but his games still have goals (although they lack the tangible values connected which makes for 1 less barrier to worry about). What Fumito does quite brilliantly is to set up goals but let the player question does goals. The player wonders about the scenes, the mysteries, the goals, at least I did. I never really questioned games and their goals like I did with Shadow of the Colossus. For some reason, the things that I need to do to reach the goal of a game are just never questioned, even when they where unethical, but somehow I did with SotC.
    So now there seem to be 2 ways to work with goals and still tell an interesting story. One where the player has absolute cotrol over the story (the sims) and one where the player is directed, but still questions it. There must be more!

    Like

  13. Rich Wilson Avatar

    Shadow of the Colossus is one of my favorites. I love the gnawing feeling of guilt and dread as the game marched to its inexorable conclusion. Would it have been more or less meaningful if the player had the option of leaving Dormin’s deal on the table, ascending the spiral staircase and crossing the bridge back home, leaving his beloved to her fate?

    Like

  14. Rich Wilson Avatar

    As for the save/load discussion, I’d like to make a game where saves are graphically represented as narrative nodes, encouraging the player to go back and explore alternate choices at the junctures which would branch off, resulting in a tree structure. Each node would need to be fairly descriptive about the state of the world, so the player could go back and browse the tree, looking for other divergent causal avenues to explore into.

    Like

  15. Brian Taylor Avatar

    Those monkeys that are play fighting are preparing themselves for something that they will experience more or less directly in their own life, though. For most games, the relationship between the player and the choices they’re making is more abstract.
    I’m likely never going to have to decide the fate of an entire race, or slaughter colossi to bring someone back to life; at best, I can hope to find a metaphor in these situations, or to understand what someone else might go through in this case. But if in a game I had to, say, decide how to react to an unplanned pregnancy, or sudden unemployment, or decide whether to put my aging parents in a nursing home or to try to take care of them myself, will I way the consequences more seriously as a player?
    Probably not. I’d probably still save and reload and try it different ways, because then I’d be seeing different possibilities. Trying out different things in a safe play space where there are do-overs.
    Rich’s tree structure would work well, I think, if the meaning wasn’t in the choices made, but in the differences in the results. If the game encouraged comparing situational outcomes…sort of a hyper-“It’s a Wonderful Life”.

    Like

  16. Nels Anderson Avatar

    I think that a lot of the emotional resonance of decision making arises from most significant decisions being mutually exclusive. Regret only exists when we cannot change our minds without cost. The role regret plays in decision making is actually quite interesting and there’s a good deal of academic writings on this (many are gated in journal websites, unfortunately). Barry Schwartz did make some related observations during his talk at TED (http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html), specifically when he discusses opportunity cost.
    Manveer’s call for more permanence is asking to restore opportunity cost and reintroduce regret in decision making in games. I’m not convinced that’s the right solution (although I am interested to see how it works in The Old Republic and other projects), but I do want to understand what decision making without regret looks like. What emotions are involved in regret-free decision making?
    I think a better understanding of the emotional gravitas in zero opportunity cost decisions would be quite helpful in creating more meaningful EDMs (to borrow your term).

    Like

  17. Chris Threlfo Avatar
    Chris Threlfo

    Manveer said: “What I’m proposing is a, brute force admittedly, approach of giving the players enough branching options in their world that when they make a “mistake” their thought isn’t to “reload to fix it”. Rather, the game keeps going, handles it, and lets you to continue and learn from that mistake and feel the emotions, the regret, from what you chose. That requires a LOT more work, but I think it lets us experience games differently.”
    This is the approach I personally am interested in exploring, and that has the most resonance with me. You make decisions that consistently lead you down a certain path and affect the world in certain ways, but you have the opportunity to make exceptions when you feel its appropriate (e.g. Maybe you are a good guy who occasionally feels that certain criminals are unforgivable, or a gangster with a soft spot for kids).
    This both reduces the frequency of reloading (re-doing one decision is one thing, re-doing a dozen is another) but also allows players to change their mind (and character/ethics) halfway through a game. If a sum of decisions affects character’s perception of the player, then the path to redemption is difficult, but also achievable. If done effectively, the web of friends and enemies to a player would continue to evolve over the game and have interesting and meaningful effect over the final game outcome.
    To really pull this off, a game would need pretty sophisticated relationship modelling, but the player payoff would certainly make the effort worthwhile.

    Like

  18. Tj'ièn Avatar

    Although the brute force method as as quoted above is an obvious path to choose, it seems to me like both expensive and almost impossible to pull of. I do think it might work.
    What I’m interested in is to see if there are possibilities of abstracting a story, like we do with mechanics. It would be both really difficult and undesirable to make mechanics exact counterparts of real life mechanics. So why try to tell a story with precise narrative? (Although I understand that a story is both already abstract and interpreted.)
    Maybe there is a more elegant way of telling stories that fit more to the way games operate, instead of the brute force method. And when we find this more elegant way of telling stories, letting players make (ethical) choices should come natural I think.

    Like

  19. Clint Avatar

    Re: the proposed brute force approach.
    Chris – I strongly suspect that this is the approach most people are – as you say – ‘interested in exploring’ and the concept is the one that ‘has the most resonance’ with most people.
    I feel this is because it is the most narrative-like. It is the most traditional and filmic. It is what we already understand, and because of this, it is (comparatively) easy to see the path forward. Films and novels make us feel using certain techniques – among them in particular are notions of immersion, permanence of decision, and inevitability of action of an external character with whom we empathically bond.
    While we can definitely improve the sorts games that seek to be filmic in the way they tell stories by working on this approach, I question whether this is where the real honest emotions that games can endear can or should come from.
    Manveer’s description of his brute force approach (no offense Manveer) in not (imo)a brute force approach to making a game. It is a brute force approach to making a film that branches a lot. It’s 100 or 1000 hours of authored irreversible and well-realized decisions, descendant from discrete and irreversible choices. It’s based on the assumption that emotions COME FROM irreversible descisions, and that without irreversibility, we cannot feel. It’s Dragon’s Lair redux… which is still the hallmark example of a game that leveraged the narrative notions that are most familiar to the general public and made something slightly game-like.
    Conversely – I find it intersting the sheer number of films recently that try (often too hard) to provide multiple perspectives (from Reservoir Dogs to Crash to the films of Inarritu and many others) when this idea of mutliple overlapping perspectives is non-filmic in nature. Of course you can still make a film about it, but it is working against the grain to say the least. This kind of thing is, in fact, and among other things, what games do best. I believe we need to focus on the things which are unique and which we do better than other media, and embrace and develop those things to there fullest so that we are not playing second fiddle to another medium.
    I strongly suspect that if we want to develop methods for enabling players to truly engage in ethical decisions (or other meaningful decisions) in games, we need to embrace the malleable, multiform, player authored nature of what a game is, not reject it in favor of something else simply because we understand it better. I think that partially because I am idealistic about it, but also because I think it is just lazy to take the other path. I think we owe it to our medium to develop it responsibly (like a forest) and be custodians of it in its nascency to hand it off in the healthiest possible condition, still overflowing with promise – to the next generation when the time comes.
    The adventure in what we do – for me anyway – is not in the craftsmanship of telling great stories. It is in the invention of finding new ways to help people see, understand, feel and share the human experience. I personally feel that, now more than ever, the onus is on the inventors to step-up and deliver, because the craftsman are making a shitheap of cash clear-cutting that forest and as the explosion of the game industry continues, the ones who decide what landscape the next generation inherits are going to be the ones with the cash.

    Like

  20. James Everett Avatar

    Valve’s Director system in Left 4 Dead shows a small step in the direction of game response, but it’s still just throwing enemies at players as opposed to creating ethical choices.
    Any system of choice, whether it’s A/B or N choices, needs to have a corresponding response from the game. The brute force route just provides the branching tree structure from hell, and as you say Clint, a traditional narrative structure. One of the best recent examples of this is Facade. It managed the execution of events in a fascinating way, but still had huge amounts of “brute force” content to cover all eventualities. The lack of clarity around the player’s input (typing in lines to “say” without knowing exactly how the system could cope, character positioning in the world etc.) helped in this regard and allowed playback of content in a similarly messy fashion.
    At the moment my thoughts are hung up on artificial intelligence combined with robust game mechanics. If all entities in the world respond to player behaviour and can feed back into the game state then what are the simplest set of actions we can give to players to have the largest range of effects on the game world? I’m not sure a strictly game mechanics approach can tackle this issue, there needs to be something in the game which can work with/against the player to create the experience. If the mechanics themselves are so complex as to allow for emergent behaviours which convincingly frame ethical decisions then I suspect the rule set would be so opaque to the player as to make it completely unclear what effect their actions had on the game.

    Like

  21. Chris Threlfo Avatar
    Chris Threlfo

    Clint, it’s my last paragraph that really portrays my thoughts on the matter: “To really pull this off, a game would need pretty sophisticated relationship modelling, but the player payoff would certainly make the effort worthwhile.”
    I have no particular interest in just hiring a whole cadre of writers who can map out the entire probability space. Not only is it uneconomical, it doesn’t really give the true expressiveness that games are capable of. The larger your tree becomes, the more difficult it is for subtleties to emerge.
    “I strongly suspect that if we want to develop methods for enabling players to truly engage in ethical decisions (or other meaningful decisions) in games, we need to embrace the malleable, multiform, player authored nature of what a game is, not reject it in favor of something else simply because we understand it better.”
    This is what I am really about. The direction I am most keen to explore is modelling human relationships within the game engine. It’s a much more difficult challenge, but one that distinctly appeals to me (I’m a software architect/designer). This is to me, the only way to have player actions directly influence the game world, rather than just reflect authorial decisions that have been made up front.
    There’s a lot of work that’s being done on the subject. The aforementioned Façade, Chris Crawford’s Storytron, the unnanounced project from Warren Spector’s Junction Point studios (before they were bought by Disney), and the Sims are some examples. There’s also a lot of academic work that gets published under the heading “Interactive Storytelling” that relates to the same topic.
    All that said, effectively modelling characters and relationships – in a believable way – that evokes sympathy and drama for the player (and ultimately regret) is a really difficult thing to pull off. Tying that into an engaging storyline (or as Chris Crawford calls it, a Storyworld) with authored, rich characters is even more complex. Generating appropriate dialog and allowing the player to engage by making meaningful decisions is another issue entirely (which is why The Sims sticks to gobbledygook).
    The question then becomes: Can we adopt some of these techniques into the next generation of games, without going all the way off the deep end? That is the challenge for game designers today.

    Like

  22. K Daryanani Avatar

    A very interesting discussion.
    I feel we need to move away from the good/evil dichotomy, or at least throw shades of grey. Most ethical dilemmas in games really aren’t, they’re simply ways of asking the player ‘how would you like to portray yourself for the purposes of the outcome of this story?’.
    I think the main reason for this is the way games end. Usually, after the player completes the game, they are shown a cutscene that wraps up the story – and, more and more commonly, presents the cliffhanger that leads to the sequel. Thus, the dilemmas we present players are simplistic, because they must necessarily lead to one or more predetermined conclusions.
    Now, in videogames, unlike in movies, we have the capability to have a variety of endings, usually based on how the player navigated the content of the game.
    So, as one way of creating a narrative more unique to videogames, I’d propose a solution used in film that games can probably make more of. I’m sure it has a name in film, but it’s the epilogue at the end that shows what happened to the characters in the movie after it ends (see Animal House, for example).
    An ending like that – and indeed events in the sequels – can probably be tailored to the player’s actions during the game. The ending could be composed of several short ‘epilogues’ for each important decision in the game. This would allow the player’s actions in the game to have the obvious immediate short-term consequences seen in the game, both narrative and mechanical, as well as long term consequences, which a lot of dilemmas in games nowadays seem to lack. From there, it probably wouldn’t be too big of a leap to have these choices recorded in the game’s post-ending scene save file. This save file could then be used to check what choices the player made during the game, and be used as the basis for certain events, quests, or interactions in the sequel.
    Finding a way to deliver such an ending and sequel to the player in time and on budget is another matter entirely, but that’s not the subject of this discussion. So I’ll move on.
    In my mind, the lack of long-term consequences is crippling to ethical dilemmas in videogames. In meatspace, two strong emotions associated with dilemmas are doubt and regret. Doubt of whether the choice made was the right one, and regret over the consequences of our actions. The two are probably intrinsically tied together, but I am no psychologist, so I wouldn’t know for sure. Evoking these two emotions in videogames is hard, for a number of reasons:
    1. The consequences of choice are usually shown to the player straight away. This is what enables players to go back to a previous save point and check out what the other outcome is. My suggestion would be to have several different sets of consequences that are revealed gradually throughout the game. For example, a game might have a quest in a village to go kill a monster that is attacking said village, stealing a sheep every other day. The locals explain that the monster used to only attack once a month, but it has become increasingly aggressive and the situation has reached the point where the mounting losses are costing them enough to pool some money together to pay someone such as yourself to rid them of the beast.
    Killing the monster that is terrorising the village means the villagers like you more and call you a hero, as well as giving you much-needed money for gear upgrades, training, and other adventurerly expenses. If you explore the area where you find the monster, you find it’s lair, where it’s helpless young mewl at you pathetically and try in a weak attempt to imitate their mother’s behaviour towards intruders. If you leave them be, they might die, or they might survive, or a band of evil humanoids mght find them and enslave them later, rearing them and using them to terrorise – or even annihilate – the locals. But the humanoids only show up later in the game, and only if you kill the mother monster. If you find a different way of getting rid of her, the humanoids still appear, but they don’t have access to warbeasts of doom, so they harrass the villagers, who call you back to solve their new monster problem. If you don’t get rid of the monster, the villagers are still subjected to it’s depredations, but when the humanoids show up she also starts preying on them, meaning that her attacks become less frequent – until the end of the game, at which point the cubs are grown enough to cause lots of trouble to villagers and humanoids alike.
    In the example, chances are the player would kill the beast, and then find the lair. They then get to choose whether or not to go back and load their previous save file, and not kill the beast, or not. Each choice has an immediate consequence, but that is not the end of the dilemma. After killing the beast, the player needs to choose whether or not to kill the cubs (if the player happens to have met a dealer in rare beasts, they could always try to find a way to sell them the cubs. That could, in and of itself, be another moral dilemma. Killing the cubs might seem to be evil, but selling them to a stranger whose intentions towards them are unknown?).
    No matter what the player’s choice, they will have set in motion a series of events. Eventually, the long-term consequences of those events occur, and the player is shown the repercussions of their earlier actions. With enough separation between the action and the reaction, chances are the player will have made other choices in the game, saved a few times, and progressed, to the point where going all the way back to the beginning of the game is impractical. This might, of course, raise the question of whether the player will feel regret at what they have done, how long they will feel it, and whether they will feel their experience cheapened by the whole event, or whether they will appreciate the nuance woven into a seemingly simple choice, and face future choices with some doubt as to the long-term consequences of those choices.
    Of course, ‘long-term’ is a relative term when talking about videogames, since a game usually plays out in a relatively short period of the player’s life, and gameplay itself lasts anywhere between 15 and 80 hours these days. By causing some of the player’s actions in a game to have consequences, even if minor ones, in a sequel – if it is appropriate to the nature of both games – we can make the choices we present in the player even more meaningful. If the player spares a minor villain in the first game and makes them see the error of their ways, and the villain then appears as a secret recruitable character in the sequel, having reformed themselves and taken the character’s words to heart, the choice of whether to spare the villain in the first game becomes more meaningful. If the alternative, killing the villain, and receiving a powerful weapon as a reward, makes that weapon available in the second game as an heirloom, we make the choice even more meaningful, in that it has very long-term consequences (and this system can be touted as a feature to encourage people who didn’t buy the first game to buy it, or it can be a feature that can only be unlocked once per disk, serving as both a pseudo-DRM and a means to encourage people to buy the game first-hand, instead of second hand). It also gives us another element unique to the narrative of videogames, in that the user’s actions and choices in the game can be woven into the on-going narrative of the gameworld.
    This comment is already overly long, and has taken me a fair while to write, so I’ll stop here and I look forward to seeing how the discussion evolves.

    Like

  23. Oscar Barda Avatar

    On Nels Anderson’s comment : Regret-free decision
    As humans we desire what we don’t have or can’t have. A decision as choosing between a range of possibility that are either presented to you (as in dialog options) or that you make up as you go (in the systemic range allowed by the game in that case). If the decision is hard to make it makes it, as apparently most people agree here, an interesting decision because it creates the art loop.
    [parenthesis on what I call the art loop]
    What do I mean by that ; entertainment would be a straight line (you projecting yourself into a game/movie/book) and art happens when the media itself comes back to you as a person. For instance, MGS’s fight against Sniper Wolf is entertaining and the final cutscene would suddenly make art happen.
    [/parenthesis on what I call the art loop]
    So if a decision makes you involved in the process, if you as a the “conscience” of your character has to choose, then game art happens. Not just pulled from other medias, not just used from things that already exist, a form of feeling and meaning only available in games. Now this choice must involve you as a human being that is, if you don’t stand by your choice because you have the opportunity to correct it, if you detach yourself from the game, then you are not making a choice as described above, you are trying systemic exploration which does not involve feelings, it’s only us playing with the toy we have in our hands.
    So the evil circle here is : you want the player to be implicated as a person in the decision making process, so you make him choose in a meaningful way so that he will have a hard decision to make and must involve himself, therefore, as a human regret his act BUT you know that regret leads out of the game… So how do we solve this ?
    First lead for me is the Oblivion route : You say “ok, bad or good you choose” and then you hope that player will hold on to their choices and eventually, as in Jade Empire, help them keep the initial orientation by promising them huge rewards and making their choice visible at all time. So you just design two long term consequences. The problem is that, with this model, your player will never choose anything, he will just pick what his character would do, and could you please make it obvious ? Like Kill/Help the innocent ?
    Eventually as Warrior King did very well, you can add a third “no commitment” zone (the technological “faction” of the game if you don’t build churches nor satanic temples). This doesn’t solve the problem : because with each new “end choice” you design, you create adjacent grey zone between this one and the others, building outcomes for these grey zones could work but, as was said earlier in the discussion, it’d take a lot of time, and will still be taken from other medias: it’s not because you can choose between three lines that they are not lines.
    Second lead is the technical one, if you can program AI efficiently enough, you can develop as was also said, a non-linear story. I don’t really know if that’s a good solution, games being predictable is part of their appeal so there might be a choice there to make into who you can present with a choice that will make a game or a moment of gaming become art.
    Now is there a regret-free choice ? I think as a designer you can easily reduce the regret but I don’t think you can remove it.
    What do you people reading this comment think about locking choices ? Like saving automatically each time something happens ? I believe that is where Heavy Rain is going.
    At least, if you don’t have a choice, having to live with what you choose is one way to make people think more carefully about their choices… We’ll just have to be good enough so that people will choose from a narrative point of view rather than from a systemic one.

    Like

  24. Manveer Heir Avatar

    I think it’s important to understand that emotions CAN come from irreversible decisions. It’s also important to know that it’s not the ONLY way emotions can come. I brought up irreversible decisions because it’s important to me to try to evoke new emotions any way possible, because we don’t do this well at all now in games. At the exact same time, I’m fine with saying the types of games we are making now are decendant from film and aren’t the best way to take advantage of our medium.
    However, I’m unwilling to say that we shouldn’t even try to make these designer-authored games more emotional. In fact, I think it’s important we start pushing the limits of the this model for emotional impact, since we are so far behind the curve when it comes to developing games that are NOT designer-authorial in nature but still are able to create player narrative and have emotional, meaningful impact. Hopefully, something like this plays out down the road…
    Clint goes out and you figures out how we can make games in a whole new way that lets us finally fully realize our potential as a medium. Then, he takes the lessons of emotion and ethical decision making that someone like me figured out in a “traditional” game that and apply some of those lessons to his new game design paradigm. And then we break through with a new type of game that also has deep, meaningful impact and emotions right away. We don’t sit around and wait to figure that stuff out with the new model.
    In other words, I think that by “solving” the problem in the designer-authorial context we will learn a lot about how to eventually solve the problem in the player-authorial context. Not every lesson will be applicable, but I think we’ll learn enough that we’ll have a leg ahead. So again, we need to do this concurrently. That way, later when both problems are “solved” we can use each other to make something truly epic.
    It would be like if I started a new game project for an FPS and built an entire FPS level from scratch. Once I finish the level, my boss comes and tells me “we’re changing the game to a racing game – make a new level”. Yes, I am going to throw away the FPS level. But I’ve still learned a lot of lessons. I’ve learned how my pipelines for getting assets into the game work. I’ve learned how the engine I’m using works. I’ve learned something about the staff I’m working with. I can still take all those lessons and make the racing level and do that better and faster than had I started the racing level first. Yes, work is wasted when we go deep down the wrong path but it doesn’t mean it’s not valuable or useful.
    So by doing this, we CAN keep the industry and the craft healthy when we hand it off to the next-generation of designers as you say. We can invent new models to use to build our games. None of this is laziness. None of this is a waste of time. None of this is disingenious to the full potential of the medium. It’s a way for all of us, as a community of developers, to solve the problems while still making great games (and marketable games since, let’s face it, many of us work for large publically-owned companies). We must try and do both as an industry.
    We cannot discount the value of lessons learned from the going deep down the wrong path.

    Like

  25. Clint Avatar

    Manveer:
    I completely understand your argument and your points. But…
    As it happens I am reading Reinventing Comics right now, and at the end of Part 1, McCloud is talking about a kind of genre collapse that buried the American comics industry. Basically, there was one kind of comic that was the most popular – bullet-proof guys wearing their underwear over their pants – and that created a market pressure to make the romance comics and western comics and war comics and detective comics be more like superhero comics. Whether this involved the creation of a tights-wearing detective such as Batman or whether it involved tonal and stylistic shifts that forced the action and dramatic elements of war or pirate comics to be more super-heroic in their structure and form, the end result was the same:
    They gave the audience what they wanted, and now >95% of comics are superhero comics and the medium is completely lost to general public. (This seems to be shifting slightly within the last 2 years, but since we’re inside it there is no point is trying to speculate as to whether that medium will be ‘healthy’ again in North America at this juncture).
    My concern is that the points you make might well be true in theory where you and I are free artists able to make the games we want. But we’re not – or not completely. We’re still answerable to the guys who make the money, and we still need to return profit (and explosive growth) on our work.
    Given that:
    a) the general public who are increasingly playing games are highly fluent in appreciating emotionally engaging content doled out by authors
    b) our ability to deliver authored emotional experiences is improving and the games that are leading the way are more successful than those that try more game-native approaches to driving emotional engagement
    I am gravely concerned that we are only a small step away from being actually (or even just practically) forbidden from exploring these new approaches because they are too risky or not profitable enough.
    If we can continue to see the levels of explosive growth we see in the industry today by focusing on improving our ability to deliver authored narrative-like experiences duct-taped to the sides of our games which themselvesd remain mechanically and dynamically meaningless, then no one will ever want to finance a riskier approach that will yield much slower growth.
    Worse than that, those who strive to develop the new vocabulary of expression may end up left behind.
    Worse still, the audience may never realize what they are missing.
    And worst of all, we may construct a new, wonderful, even beautiful new medium that is amazingly successful and leads to the birth of a new industry, but whose emotionally impactful artfulness is relegated entirely into the non-interactive authored space between the repetitive and insipid mashing of ‘X’ to chop down legions of enemies until you get to the next bit of Academy Award winning artful story.
    That is a grand and beautiful vision – but I can’t subscribe to it, because it literally means giving up on what I am compelled to do and letting the directors and actors and editors of the ‘real meaningful parts’ of the games I work on do their thing while I continue to do meaningless crap to bridge the gap between segments of their art.
    Now – I appreciate your ‘why can’t we work together on this’ approach (and I’m not being facetious, I do appreciate it) – I am concerned that this approach itself is what kills the future of our industry.
    And I don’t want to sound like a Crawfordly old curmudgeon, but I see the building pressures, and they’re very real.

    Like

  26. Jared Newman Avatar

    “Conversely – I find it intersting the sheer number of films recently that try (often too hard) to provide multiple perspectives (from Reservoir Dogs to Crash to the films of Inarritu and many others) when this idea of mutliple overlapping perspectives is non-filmic in nature. Of course you can still make a film about it, but it is working against the grain to say the least. This kind of thing is, in fact, and among other things, what games do best.”
    Clint: Were you at E3 and did you see Brink? The game will allow the player to see the game from both sides of a war in which neither is necessarily “right.” Most games, by comparison, parse the “two sides” idea into good and evil, so I’m excited to see whether Splash Damage succeeds in creating something meaningful.

    Like

  27. Matthew Johnson Avatar
    Matthew Johnson

    Someone may have mentioned this above — forgive me, I haven’t read every comment — but there’s a way to have save games and still provide moral/ethical ramifications of your decisions: any game that tracks the moral dimension of your behaviour does so using some sort of stored variable, so the game just has to make that variable persistent despite saves. In other words, if you save at a certain point and then do a bunch of evil things, and then later decide it would have been better to be good, when you revert to your save your “moral meter” will fail to revert, instead reflecting the actions you took after the last save.

    Like

  28. Tj'ièn Avatar

    …Yes, but that would be kind of like ‘not saving’, right? I’m not saying it isn’t an interesting proposition, but what your telling me is that I can go back in time, but I have to deal with issues I did in the (last) future… Like, I could be punching someone in the face, then revert to the last save, but still have a sore hand and an angry guy standing opposite of me 😀 But in all seriousness that would become really hard to track as a player after several retries, not to mention the development. But then again, we’re not talking about an easy solution here.
    Hmm, Brinks sounds interesting, but it would become really hard to see the adversaries as the good guys once you have experience it from one side I think, not impossible probably as some movies revolve around this and succeed.
    @ Clint: Stick in there man, keep fighting that battle. I truly believe there are ways that mechanics will be able to tell stories and that the player can experience the story through them. Your reading a great book by the way, and like comics we have our own language, our own way of presenting and experiencing a story. We just didn’t find it yet, but I’m guessing with lots of people trying out different things it is bound to happen somewhere this coming year. Keep it up!

    Like

  29. Clint Avatar

    To push the same argument from a slightly different perspective (though now we’re not talking about ethics, we’re talking about how we make meaningful decisions in games, with ethical decisions being only a part of that)…
    I just came across this post over at Brainy Gamer that criticizes the industry’s resignation as viewed through the lens of E3.
    http://is.gd/1c9jA

    Like

  30. Alan Jack Avatar

    One thing this touches on – and something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently – is the psychology of how we behave in games as opposed to how we behave in life. Its funny how these things happen at the same time – there’s a relevant “experiment” going on just now as well, in which people are playing Far Cry 2 and accepting any death they have as permanent.
    http://drgamelove.blogspot.com/2009/06/permanent-death-episode-1-inasupicious.html
    On the subject of save/load and player death, I’m split. I don’t have a clear opinion of my own at the moment, but I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment and call Clint out on something: are you sure your insistence on the save/load system being part of what makes a game a game isn’t simply your attempt to avoid finding a better way of dealing with player death in your compose/execute/recompose cycle of failure, as shown in your GDC slides?
    I would thoroughly agree with you that dealing with player failure is part of what makes the gaming experience unique and apart from the cinematic experience. I disagree, however, that we can’t make use of regret and that players should always be able to have a “do-over”.
    Couldn’t we just deal with player death in a better way? Perhaps we’re still into branching vs emergent narratives again, but if we’re in control of the game world, why don’t we just cover player death in a way that does both?
    Let’s take Far Cry 2 as an example. Now, I’m riffing this from the top of my head, so its not going to be perfect, but what if you couldn’t really die in the game? What if, every time you died, the game would automatically save your progress at that point, and you’d have to start over with a randomly generated character who has been sent to pick up the slack of your previous player character? You’d get your stuff back, your diamond account would be transferred over, everything remains unlocked, but no-one recognizes you any more.
    The aim of this is to make it technically little more than a brief set-back, but to discourage it with grave emotional impact. Nobody LIKES to fail, even within a game. In the example you gave, Clint, of two monkeys play-fighting – yes, it is important that the monkeys have agreed not to kill each other. That would be the social contract that creates the “magic circle”, surrounding the game and the player (http://www.obs.obercom.pt/index.php/obs/article/viewPDFInterstitial/243/240). But it is also important – at least to that particular game – that neither monkey wants to lose.
    (Its still a game if one does accept (a “training fight”) but its a different game. I’m not sure what that means for this discussion though)
    Getting back to my original point on the way we behave in gameplay experiences, I also wonder what our goal in this area should be. To create an experience so realistic, with so much immersion, that a player plays as though it is real life is to make something other than a game. Clint is correct in this assumption. If I want to run around “real” Africa and be shot at all the time, I’d fly there and ask people in bars about diamond mines, and last about five minutes. A good example of this is in Far Cry 2 itself – the “magic nut” that fixes every problem with your car in seconds. On the surface, a ridiculous concession to gaming mentality, but its acceptable within the environment, and streamlines our passage through unnecessary drawbacks of reality to the experience the designer(s) intended us to have.
    Is death one of these unnecessary drawbacks, or is it part of the experience? Should we be streamlining past it, or integrating it into the environment?
    I think there’s a line we need to draw in the sand between creating the “real” experience and the “gaming” experience, and I think what it comes down to is knowing what is the essence of the experience we are trying to convey. I’m planning an at-length blog post when I can find the time, but the best example I can give is the new control system in the upcoming Splinter Cell shown at E3 – we don’t want to be some awkwardly-moving mannequin with the potential to be Sam Fisher if we can work out how, we want to BE Sam Fisher, a man who doesn’t miss his head shots, doesn’t stumble awkwardly into his targets, and doesn’t mistime his steps.
    And finally, on the subject of emergent vs branching stories: I appreciate both sides. Branching stories are a concession to technology – I think we can all agree that emergence is what we want. The problem is people saying “it can’t be done”. Well, I’d like to throw in my two cents: NOTHING is impossible, especially in the world of game development. Some things are just really, really, REALLY difficult. So, to those working on emergent narrative systems: stick at it, we’ll get there, and we’ll all be better off for it.

    Like

Leave a reply to Jared Newman Cancel reply